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	<title>Comments on: Bad habits, or a chance to learn?</title>
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	<description>Blog your life away on music, controversy, theology, food, the arts, coffee, etc</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 17:23:40 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Ty</title>
		<link>http://wonvoice.com.au/uncategorised/bad-habits-or-a-chance-to-learn#comment-232</link>
		<dc:creator>Ty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jun 2008 10:11:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wonvoice.com.au/the-wisdom-of-the-scot/bad-habits-or-a-chance-to-learn#comment-232</guid>
		<description>Wow...great thoughts.  You guys are heavy!  It seems simple enough: worship in Spirit and truth.  Live/worship in the presence and power of the Spirit...in sync with Him...and let it be immersed in/surrounded by truth.  Let truth be the content of life/worship.  OK.  Let's move in that direction.  But until we cut the cords of this "program mentality" and trying to manipulate people into the kingdom with our clever stylishness, we will be unable to make that move.  IMHO.

Here's part of a recent dialog with a buddy who also thinks about this stuff.  Are we OK with silence in worship?  Are we OK to wait until God makes His next move?  Here was my friend's experience:

"As I look at the struggles of the church today, so many times the people running church want to be in control. Because of this, the experience looses its authenticity.

Our church has set up small tables with chairs around them for the summer. Each Sunday we do communion by serving each other. The pastor is also asking the congregation to share and be involved with the service. One of the ways he is doing that is that he asks the audience what songs they would like the worship band to sing. Inevitably there are long pauses, songs mentioned that the worship leader doesn't know, or songs that we haven't sung in a long time.

I found myself getting uncomfortable with the silence, the lack of planning, the experience as a whole. When I really asked myself what I was uncomfortable with, it came down to the fact that I was uncomfortable with the fact that there was not the usual amount of control - things were more open to what God might do. In reality it is much more authentic than what I am used to."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow&#8230;great thoughts.  You guys are heavy!  It seems simple enough: worship in Spirit and truth.  Live/worship in the presence and power of the Spirit&#8230;in sync with Him&#8230;and let it be immersed in/surrounded by truth.  Let truth be the content of life/worship.  OK.  Let&#8217;s move in that direction.  But until we cut the cords of this &#8220;program mentality&#8221; and trying to manipulate people into the kingdom with our clever stylishness, we will be unable to make that move.  IMHO.</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s part of a recent dialog with a buddy who also thinks about this stuff.  Are we OK with silence in worship?  Are we OK to wait until God makes His next move?  Here was my friend&#8217;s experience:</p>
<p>&#8220;As I look at the struggles of the church today, so many times the people running church want to be in control. Because of this, the experience looses its authenticity.</p>
<p>Our church has set up small tables with chairs around them for the summer. Each Sunday we do communion by serving each other. The pastor is also asking the congregation to share and be involved with the service. One of the ways he is doing that is that he asks the audience what songs they would like the worship band to sing. Inevitably there are long pauses, songs mentioned that the worship leader doesn&#8217;t know, or songs that we haven&#8217;t sung in a long time.</p>
<p>I found myself getting uncomfortable with the silence, the lack of planning, the experience as a whole. When I really asked myself what I was uncomfortable with, it came down to the fact that I was uncomfortable with the fact that there was not the usual amount of control - things were more open to what God might do. In reality it is much more authentic than what I am used to.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: godBoy</title>
		<link>http://wonvoice.com.au/uncategorised/bad-habits-or-a-chance-to-learn#comment-227</link>
		<dc:creator>godBoy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jun 2008 04:01:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wonvoice.com.au/the-wisdom-of-the-scot/bad-habits-or-a-chance-to-learn#comment-227</guid>
		<description>"We all know worship is really a lifestyle of obedience."
I think few Christians understand this.  To give over Every Part of ourselves is the greatest of all things we can give.  When I was confronted with this choice of obedience - It felt like I was dying.

'We all think worship is' giving God a good measure of our selves, enough to satisfy obedience - but just enough to keep us from being someone else entirely.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;We all know worship is really a lifestyle of obedience.&#8221;<br />
I think few Christians understand this.  To give over Every Part of ourselves is the greatest of all things we can give.  When I was confronted with this choice of obedience - It felt like I was dying.</p>
<p>&#8216;We all think worship is&#8217; giving God a good measure of our selves, enough to satisfy obedience - but just enough to keep us from being someone else entirely.</p>
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		<title>By: Worshipper</title>
		<link>http://wonvoice.com.au/uncategorised/bad-habits-or-a-chance-to-learn#comment-226</link>
		<dc:creator>Worshipper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jun 2008 04:13:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wonvoice.com.au/the-wisdom-of-the-scot/bad-habits-or-a-chance-to-learn#comment-226</guid>
		<description>Wow, so much to take in and refer to in a single comment right now, but here are a few points I'd like to make:

To urge a church to sing the chorus of 'Our God Reigns' over our circumstances, to me this is not necessarily encouraging the 'what will God do for me'/eyes-on-self approach.  Personally, I love singing this sort of thing as a declaration over my circumstances - proclaiming God's sovereign will, giving Him permission to reign in my life.  It says to God "Have Your way, I need YOUR wisdom and help in my life, I'll stop doing it alone, in my own strength.  Take Your rightful place of rule in my situation."  It replaces any fear or worry with faith &#38; trust.  I believe there is power in singing declarations about God, standing on His promises and proclaiming truth together as a church.

Another thing is that I believe the worship experience for each person is so unique, that we have to be careful not to put rules on how worship in church 'should' go.  I think it's supposed to be a natural outpouring&#38; overflow of a person's heart in communication with God, stemming from who God is to each person and what He has done for them.  (This says it's fine to celebrate what God HAS done in our lives through praise and thanksgiving).  Louie Giglio says "We shouldn't come to church to worship; we should come, worshipping, to church". There's a difference.  If there is no worship during the week, no relationship, no honour of God in life itself, then yes our 'worship' in church is vein and meaningless.  We all know worship is really a lifestyle of obedience.  It's sacrificing our sinful desires and replacing them with Gods desires - learnt &#38; applied through KNOWING Him personally.

If we plan our services with '1 fast song, then welcome, then a game, then announcements, then 2 more songs, then prayer, then another song, then the sermon and 2 more songs at the end' it is sooo unnatural, and feels like we are planning an 'event', a concert or a function.  I agree with Mark in that I think the western church tends to over plan church.  Why is this, we might ask?  We don't rely on the Spirit's leading always, so we rely on our plans, because they are tangible, predictable, and easy.  We can put confidence in our own plans.  We don't HAVE to risk stepping into the unknown - which is where God has so many riches in store for us.  Christians do need to get to know the Holy Spirit better, and learn to follow  His leading.  As we do that, I am confident that we will go exactly where He follows.  And he'll take us to places we've never heard of or seen before.  He will reveal his mysteries to us - i think He already has and is more and more, especially as we desire it and seek Him 'with all our heart'.  As more and more of us spend time seeking Him in this way, and letting go of our human plans &#38; rigidity, I believe a revival will fill our churches, beginning in our hearts individually.

Ok, so that wasn't a short comment after all!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, so much to take in and refer to in a single comment right now, but here are a few points I&#8217;d like to make:</p>
<p>To urge a church to sing the chorus of &#8216;Our God Reigns&#8217; over our circumstances, to me this is not necessarily encouraging the &#8216;what will God do for me&#8217;/eyes-on-self approach.  Personally, I love singing this sort of thing as a declaration over my circumstances - proclaiming God&#8217;s sovereign will, giving Him permission to reign in my life.  It says to God &#8220;Have Your way, I need YOUR wisdom and help in my life, I&#8217;ll stop doing it alone, in my own strength.  Take Your rightful place of rule in my situation.&#8221;  It replaces any fear or worry with faith &amp; trust.  I believe there is power in singing declarations about God, standing on His promises and proclaiming truth together as a church.</p>
<p>Another thing is that I believe the worship experience for each person is so unique, that we have to be careful not to put rules on how worship in church &#8217;should&#8217; go.  I think it&#8217;s supposed to be a natural outpouring&amp; overflow of a person&#8217;s heart in communication with God, stemming from who God is to each person and what He has done for them.  (This says it&#8217;s fine to celebrate what God HAS done in our lives through praise and thanksgiving).  Louie Giglio says &#8220;We shouldn&#8217;t come to church to worship; we should come, worshipping, to church&#8221;. There&#8217;s a difference.  If there is no worship during the week, no relationship, no honour of God in life itself, then yes our &#8216;worship&#8217; in church is vein and meaningless.  We all know worship is really a lifestyle of obedience.  It&#8217;s sacrificing our sinful desires and replacing them with Gods desires - learnt &amp; applied through KNOWING Him personally.</p>
<p>If we plan our services with &#8216;1 fast song, then welcome, then a game, then announcements, then 2 more songs, then prayer, then another song, then the sermon and 2 more songs at the end&#8217; it is sooo unnatural, and feels like we are planning an &#8216;event&#8217;, a concert or a function.  I agree with Mark in that I think the western church tends to over plan church.  Why is this, we might ask?  We don&#8217;t rely on the Spirit&#8217;s leading always, so we rely on our plans, because they are tangible, predictable, and easy.  We can put confidence in our own plans.  We don&#8217;t HAVE to risk stepping into the unknown - which is where God has so many riches in store for us.  Christians do need to get to know the Holy Spirit better, and learn to follow  His leading.  As we do that, I am confident that we will go exactly where He follows.  And he&#8217;ll take us to places we&#8217;ve never heard of or seen before.  He will reveal his mysteries to us - i think He already has and is more and more, especially as we desire it and seek Him &#8216;with all our heart&#8217;.  As more and more of us spend time seeking Him in this way, and letting go of our human plans &amp; rigidity, I believe a revival will fill our churches, beginning in our hearts individually.</p>
<p>Ok, so that wasn&#8217;t a short comment after all!</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://wonvoice.com.au/uncategorised/bad-habits-or-a-chance-to-learn#comment-224</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 11:10:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wonvoice.com.au/the-wisdom-of-the-scot/bad-habits-or-a-chance-to-learn#comment-224</guid>
		<description>You may get to the end of this response and question "for a guy who is saying to take the focus off the self - you really talk about yourself a lot - And you missed the point of the post completely!"

--

'Glory in the church' didn't fire me up.  I led worship and was deeply disturbed the night before I got my hands on a copy of it.  It certainly did help to clarify some things, and 'Good morning Holy Spirit' is the other book that's had a profound impact.

Right from the moment I started singing the first song I was troubled, I didn't feel like singing, my mouth was dry and I didn't want to be there.  I wasn't sure why I was so uncomfortable, I had done this worship thing many times before yet something was different in me.  At the heart of it I felt we were doing something Really Wrong in that time.  Nothing went 'noticeably wrong' in the service - The songs were performed and sung well, people seemed to enjoy it, there were arms raised and everyone was singing.  I even received many compliments after the service - thanking me for worshiping from my heart - and how they were proud of me.

After walking around outside after the service asking God to explain, I believe I got a sense of what we were Really Doing and bringing as an offering - a small damp towell.

&lt;em&gt;Were we getting this worship thing all wrong? &lt;/em&gt;Absolutely, yes.

I tried my very best to praise God in that time but an overwhelming sense of uncomfort as I observed the offering being brought made me want to leave, have a good meal with friends and read the word.

For years up until the Thursday prior to that service I was a huge fake, with an amazing hypocrisy I was getting up to lead others in worship of the Most High God.  My life didn't honour God, He spoke and I looked at my feet and continued to sin.  Even after the Holy Spirit came to me and stopped me in my tracks - I still continued on my path to sin.

Many will think I am over-reacting, and unless you have experienced what I have you probably won't understand what the big deal is.  Here's the point - it only took 3 days of obedience to the Holy Spirit for him to turn me upside and give my shabby old self a darn good shaking.

The big deal is this.  I offered my life as my act of worship - This was the beginning of a completely different life - The kind God has in mind for every Christian - yet few actually find it.

I had been filled with the spirit before - this was different.  Now He never left me, he spoke to me unsearchable things that I couldn't possible figure out my own.  He made Jesus and the Father real to me.  He made all the difference - and I could truly worship in Spirit and Truth.

--
The song is not important.  I believe analyzing the service as we have in the past in not important.  I believe 90% of our planning is misplacement of our time.

I reckon you've nailed it with this question Mic:
&lt;em&gt;"How do you put together a worship service that truly honors God?"&lt;/em&gt;

Don't Even Try! You don’t put anything together.  You submit to be led by the part of God that can truly lead our services.  The Person of the Holy Spirit.  Jesus is not on the earth, nor the Father.  But this Person who is meant to lead us is not known personally by far too many Christians.  That's why our vision's seem far too big for us.  That's why His people continue to live bound by sin.  That's why there is a pile of untouched blessing waiting in Heaven prepared by the Father we may never know.  And hear this well - It's the reason the Glory and the power of God doesn’t inhabit our meetings – It’s why there are far too few being saved where we live, eat and work.

I believe the Holy Spirit is going to carry me and lead me the rest of my life.  I’ve only Really Wanted to know Him for about a month now but He’s done far more in me than I would have imagined in this short amount of time.  I am hungry and am in His word every day.  He is showing me what God wants His Church to look like and I’m realizing how different and more brilliant it is than anything I had thought or heard.

Why is 1 Corinthians 2:9 often read and quoted, but the far greater promise in verse 10 dismissed?

--

I still have your poster on my bedroom wall Mic:
&lt;em&gt;"What kind of church?"&lt;/em&gt;

&lt;strong&gt;I believe He wants to show us.&lt;/strong&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You may get to the end of this response and question &#8220;for a guy who is saying to take the focus off the self - you really talk about yourself a lot - And you missed the point of the post completely!&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8211;</p>
<p>&#8216;Glory in the church&#8217; didn&#8217;t fire me up.  I led worship and was deeply disturbed the night before I got my hands on a copy of it.  It certainly did help to clarify some things, and &#8216;Good morning Holy Spirit&#8217; is the other book that&#8217;s had a profound impact.</p>
<p>Right from the moment I started singing the first song I was troubled, I didn&#8217;t feel like singing, my mouth was dry and I didn&#8217;t want to be there.  I wasn&#8217;t sure why I was so uncomfortable, I had done this worship thing many times before yet something was different in me.  At the heart of it I felt we were doing something Really Wrong in that time.  Nothing went &#8216;noticeably wrong&#8217; in the service - The songs were performed and sung well, people seemed to enjoy it, there were arms raised and everyone was singing.  I even received many compliments after the service - thanking me for worshiping from my heart - and how they were proud of me.</p>
<p>After walking around outside after the service asking God to explain, I believe I got a sense of what we were Really Doing and bringing as an offering - a small damp towell.</p>
<p><em>Were we getting this worship thing all wrong? </em>Absolutely, yes.</p>
<p>I tried my very best to praise God in that time but an overwhelming sense of uncomfort as I observed the offering being brought made me want to leave, have a good meal with friends and read the word.</p>
<p>For years up until the Thursday prior to that service I was a huge fake, with an amazing hypocrisy I was getting up to lead others in worship of the Most High God.  My life didn&#8217;t honour God, He spoke and I looked at my feet and continued to sin.  Even after the Holy Spirit came to me and stopped me in my tracks - I still continued on my path to sin.</p>
<p>Many will think I am over-reacting, and unless you have experienced what I have you probably won&#8217;t understand what the big deal is.  Here&#8217;s the point - it only took 3 days of obedience to the Holy Spirit for him to turn me upside and give my shabby old self a darn good shaking.</p>
<p>The big deal is this.  I offered my life as my act of worship - This was the beginning of a completely different life - The kind God has in mind for every Christian - yet few actually find it.</p>
<p>I had been filled with the spirit before - this was different.  Now He never left me, he spoke to me unsearchable things that I couldn&#8217;t possible figure out my own.  He made Jesus and the Father real to me.  He made all the difference - and I could truly worship in Spirit and Truth.</p>
<p>&#8211;<br />
The song is not important.  I believe analyzing the service as we have in the past in not important.  I believe 90% of our planning is misplacement of our time.</p>
<p>I reckon you&#8217;ve nailed it with this question Mic:<br />
<em>&#8220;How do you put together a worship service that truly honors God?&#8221;</em></p>
<p>Don&#8217;t Even Try! You don’t put anything together.  You submit to be led by the part of God that can truly lead our services.  The Person of the Holy Spirit.  Jesus is not on the earth, nor the Father.  But this Person who is meant to lead us is not known personally by far too many Christians.  That&#8217;s why our vision&#8217;s seem far too big for us.  That&#8217;s why His people continue to live bound by sin.  That&#8217;s why there is a pile of untouched blessing waiting in Heaven prepared by the Father we may never know.  And hear this well - It&#8217;s the reason the Glory and the power of God doesn’t inhabit our meetings – It’s why there are far too few being saved where we live, eat and work.</p>
<p>I believe the Holy Spirit is going to carry me and lead me the rest of my life.  I’ve only Really Wanted to know Him for about a month now but He’s done far more in me than I would have imagined in this short amount of time.  I am hungry and am in His word every day.  He is showing me what God wants His Church to look like and I’m realizing how different and more brilliant it is than anything I had thought or heard.</p>
<p>Why is 1 Corinthians 2:9 often read and quoted, but the far greater promise in verse 10 dismissed?</p>
<p>&#8211;</p>
<p>I still have your poster on my bedroom wall Mic:<br />
<em>&#8220;What kind of church?&#8221;</em></p>
<p><strong>I believe He wants to show us.</strong></p>
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		<title>By: dapapagroove</title>
		<link>http://wonvoice.com.au/uncategorised/bad-habits-or-a-chance-to-learn#comment-221</link>
		<dc:creator>dapapagroove</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 02:39:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wonvoice.com.au/the-wisdom-of-the-scot/bad-habits-or-a-chance-to-learn#comment-221</guid>
		<description>Thanks for writing this....an honest moment.

Here's my take.

is the worship that I support more about God or more about us? 

It must be about God... I have major issues with worship times/songs that are purely focused on us...these are not worship times. BUT this prompts the question; can we sing a song corporately that shouts out Gods' greatness through what he has done for us? 

"Amazing Grace how sweet the sound that saves a wretch like me, I once was was lost but now I'm found, was blind but now I see"....about me or God? I can't sing this song without worshiping God, following the realisation that God -  IN HIS UNLIMITED GREATNESS -  loves me and pours His Grace out for me.


how do you put together a worship service that truly honors God? 

God's word tells us about His nature, being and holiness. A honoring service is one that tells of these things in spirit and truth and is accompanied by the desire to become more like Him.

is it acceptable to sing songs about our needs? 

Sure....AS LONG AS the song points to God as he meets our needs and in doing so, takes the focus off us. BUT my preference is to spend the small amount of time that we have in corporate worship (as this is what we are discussing) focussed  directly on God.

if our worship doesn’t lead people deeper into the heart of God, where is it leading them?.....in this context - deeper into the heart of man.

Let's talk.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for writing this&#8230;.an honest moment.</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s my take.</p>
<p>is the worship that I support more about God or more about us? </p>
<p>It must be about God&#8230; I have major issues with worship times/songs that are purely focused on us&#8230;these are not worship times. BUT this prompts the question; can we sing a song corporately that shouts out Gods&#8217; greatness through what he has done for us? </p>
<p>&#8220;Amazing Grace how sweet the sound that saves a wretch like me, I once was was lost but now I&#8217;m found, was blind but now I see&#8221;&#8230;.about me or God? I can&#8217;t sing this song without worshiping God, following the realisation that God -  IN HIS UNLIMITED GREATNESS -  loves me and pours His Grace out for me.</p>
<p>how do you put together a worship service that truly honors God? </p>
<p>God&#8217;s word tells us about His nature, being and holiness. A honoring service is one that tells of these things in spirit and truth and is accompanied by the desire to become more like Him.</p>
<p>is it acceptable to sing songs about our needs? </p>
<p>Sure&#8230;.AS LONG AS the song points to God as he meets our needs and in doing so, takes the focus off us. BUT my preference is to spend the small amount of time that we have in corporate worship (as this is what we are discussing) focussed  directly on God.</p>
<p>if our worship doesn’t lead people deeper into the heart of God, where is it leading them?&#8230;..in this context - deeper into the heart of man.</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s talk.</p>
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		<title>By: YummaMumma</title>
		<link>http://wonvoice.com.au/uncategorised/bad-habits-or-a-chance-to-learn#comment-219</link>
		<dc:creator>YummaMumma</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jun 2008 14:47:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wonvoice.com.au/the-wisdom-of-the-scot/bad-habits-or-a-chance-to-learn#comment-219</guid>
		<description>I love your questions. I wonder about this alot too. I believe that to worship God, to sing songs that speak of his power, his love, his works, his nature, his faithfulness etc are in themselves so uplifting that I have no need for a worship leader to tell me to sing something 'over my situation'. When I sing aloud something true about God, it amazes me, and I realise again that God already and forever IS over my life and is over the whole world and he does reign. Corporate worship is an amazing opportunity, sometimes missed, for us to simply speak the truth to God and honour him together REGARDLESS of what is going on in my life and regardless of whether bad things get worse or better. When we confuse this opportunity, and start singing about ourselves, or focussing on ourselves, the result is emptiness. What's the point?
On the other hand - worship is the expression of a heart that has been impressed by the reality and presence of God in their life. We don't worship a God who is only transcendent, to whom we could only offer abstract and distant praise. God is very near and IS involved in our lives and the fact of his presence and compassion to us is a huge and important motivator for genuine worship.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I love your questions. I wonder about this alot too. I believe that to worship God, to sing songs that speak of his power, his love, his works, his nature, his faithfulness etc are in themselves so uplifting that I have no need for a worship leader to tell me to sing something &#8216;over my situation&#8217;. When I sing aloud something true about God, it amazes me, and I realise again that God already and forever IS over my life and is over the whole world and he does reign. Corporate worship is an amazing opportunity, sometimes missed, for us to simply speak the truth to God and honour him together REGARDLESS of what is going on in my life and regardless of whether bad things get worse or better. When we confuse this opportunity, and start singing about ourselves, or focussing on ourselves, the result is emptiness. What&#8217;s the point?<br />
On the other hand - worship is the expression of a heart that has been impressed by the reality and presence of God in their life. We don&#8217;t worship a God who is only transcendent, to whom we could only offer abstract and distant praise. God is very near and IS involved in our lives and the fact of his presence and compassion to us is a huge and important motivator for genuine worship.</p>
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